Written and edited by Norm Scott: EDUCATE! ORGANIZE!! MOBILIZE!!! Three pillars of The Resistance – providing information on current ed issues, organizing activities around fighting for public education in NYC and beyond and exposing the motives behind the education deformers. We link up with bands of resisters. Nothing will change unless WE ALL GET INVOLVED IN THE STRUGGLE!
Thursday, June 19, 2025
Jeff Kaufman on Bentkowski: A Betrayal of Public Trust: Why New York's Retirees Will Ultimately Prevail
Monday, October 21, 2024
DA Takeaways: All About Control as Mulgrew talked and talked and talked and talked and... and loads of UFT Staff on the Dole
Mulgrew insults retirees by accusing them as using healthcare issues as a campaign issue.
Sure I don't really care about my medicare. When Mulgrew claims MEDADV is the same as Medicare, just Part C I should buy it.
...it’s presumptuous and offensive of Mulgrew to assume that retirees who are at the DA for the express purpose of saving their healthcare are merely candidates seeking further political office. Absurd. Election season is not a bad way to frame Mulgrew’s own conduct, though, who took out the Unity playbook this DA to use our dues for his own party’s campaigning.... Mulgrew controlled the DA by going so long with the President’s report that it seemed like there would be no further business - Nick's Notes
Monday, October 21, 2024
I had the best time at the DA - before and after the meeting. About 70 retirees attended in person and another 100 remote. The meeting itself? Eh.
For me the best part of the DA Wednesday was seeing so many old pals who were elected in the retiree election. And hanging out after. A poll of attendees asking for their reaction? "Hearing people name themselves as one of the 300 new/proud Retiree Delegates," was a major response. The enthusiasm in the responses to being a delegate was palpable. If Mulgrew thought he would drive retirees away, it didn't work.
By the way, there is another big meeting coming up tomorrow - the first Retired Teacher Chapter meeting of the year and we control the agenda. Unity is flipping out over the appearance of Marianne and her lawyer to report on the court cases. Mulgrew should show up and engage in a discussion rather than just make charges. If you are a UFT retiree, come on down - but register first. I can promise Bennett Fischer won't talk for an hour 13 minutes. We gave him about 10-15 minutes.
Arthur was remote:
In the first DA I’ve attended since I stepped down as chapter leader two years ago, Michael Mulgrew spoke for an hour and 12 minutes. When someone objected, he claimed the majority of people wanted this report. However, there was no vote on this report, and no way to know whether or not this was the will of the majority. Mulgrew said so, and clearly believes that should be good enough for anyone.The first question in the brief question period, ten minutes I think, as opposed to the unlimited time for Mulgrew, was about health care. Mulgrew doubled down on the false narrative that UFT is the only union that opposes the MA plan. He repeated the same lies, established to be absolutely false in court, that he’s been using about the MA program.
----It's the Mike Mulgrew Show!
At one point in the 1 hour and 13 minute Mulgrew talk, newly elected retiree delegate Lois Weiner called a point of order:
Nick's Notes: After an hour of Mulgrewspeak, newly elected retiree advocate delegate Lois Weiner had had enough and called a point of order asking him to stop, please stop. He ignored her and kept going but you could see she forced him to go faster. Still, he ended around 5:40 when he opened up for questions.I want whoever runs against Mulgrew to promise a 10-minute limit on president reports. Here's an idea, reverse the agenda and do the business end first and the president report last. Watch the exodus as people vote with their feet. (Mulgrew could also issue his report on video or in writing.)
His filibuster left little room for the rest of the agenda.
It's all about control. Packing the meeting with paid staff is a control mechanism. As is the Covid excuse cap on attendees? Nahhh. The other day I asked this question:
Note: the agenda for DA haven't changed from the Shanker days but Shanker had the confidence to allow oppo challenges. Randi, less secure, began to manipulate the DA and Mulgrew, the least confident and most paranoid, has taken things to a new phase of control.
Nick: Chris Balchin, another proud RA delegate asked the healthcare question: Now that you've withdrawn support for MAP and given that courts have found in favor of facts as presented by NYC Retirees. Will you submit amicus brief in support, send resources to UFT, etc.
Chris is super sharp -- he better wear a disguise next time to get called on.
Nick on Mulgrew response which prompted the Marianne video response above.
I said this in the executive board minutes already, but I’ll say it again: Mulgrew appeared deceptive when he claimed that the UFT was the only union officially against MAP (or, probably better described: this most recent MAP negotiation). In fact the Unity-led UFT led the charge for MAP and was one of the principle reasons we were in a financial hole (which we’re still in) that required us to find ways to make healthcare savings. For an article showing a vote in which many unions, but NOT the UFT (i.e. Mulgrew), went against the MAP decision before Unity lost an election, see here. Notice, Mulgrew seemed to defend the original MAP contract in today’s DA, which should make us wonder if it might appear in a new form if/when the City resumes negotiations.
Mulgrew tries to escape accountability - like some god-like entity made that deal.
CL from D24: Shortage of paraprofessionals. Is there any plan about the hiring freeze?
Nick tries to decipher the Mulgrew word salad:Mulgrew: Sorry, sent this out but didn’t report. Yesterday, we sent an official notification to the commissioner, DOE, mayor – under corrective action plan for almost – can’t count COVID – roughly four years. Four years it’s gotten worse, not better. They’ll talk about two things that have gotten better – 1, more of the evaluations, especially for outside referrals, other thing is gonna tout that they’ve started increasing NEST programs. But now have more out of compliance. Not fighting with them.
Fix Para Pay
How about fuckn contract negotiations, the actual way we fix pay? But Unity slugs no longer think contract negotiations are a way to win anything much, which makes sense when you accept the city claim of not having money. The anti-Unity para vote in the election last spring shows they are not buying the "let's throw up our hands" Unity position.
Sunday, July 28, 2024
Mulgrew PR Distraction: We are taking the health care fight national, even though we know it will not happen, while we Try to Privatize Retiree Health Locally
Watch what they (Unity) do, not what they say... Norm homily
...he (Mulgrew) favors a system where pieces of our benefits are controlled by industrialists who want to make money off of healthcare. That system most definitely will never be in our interest, and he shouldn’t be spending our dues money trying to shore those plutocrats up.... Under Assault
How will Retiree Advocate and or the RTC officers and exec bd respond to the Mulgrew letter to members? ... Anon.
CVS/Aetna reported $8.34 billion in profit last year, and spent $12,476,000 lobbying against policies like universal healthcare and lower prescription costs.This is the company@UFT Mulgrew and his caucus want to dump NYC Retirees in. This is why we voted them out. Arthur Goldsteinby funding the opposition to universal healthcare and lower prescription costs, they’re bankrupting patients and families at best, denying them care and leaving them to die at worst.Michael Mulgrew got up and said he now opposed the city Medicare Advantage Plan. However, as I wrote him, he’s done absolutely nothing to support our court cases or legislation---- I think Mulgrew is too set in his ways to change course. I think Mulgrew figures well, I said I opposed the Aetna plan, and that should be good enough for anyone. I think the “very smart” Unity hacks who advise him told him that would be enough, and that we would fold.--- Arthur Goldstein
Marianne mocks Mulgrew and responds (see below) or click: https://youtu.be/hrBGUqLkMlM?si=lHeo3GqobDTQ2PzZ
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Seeking fed leg is a joke and distraction |
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Michael Mulgrew Bogus, PR Reso on national healthcare is a beard to cover his opposition to a real way to get national healthcare by supporting state and regional initiatives.
Earlier today, on the floor of the American Federation of Teachers convention in Houston, Texas, I motivated a resolution to seek federal legislation to protect Medicare and expand Social Security benefits for seniors — and to ensure that these benefits will never be diminished. Forget the fact that I worked diligently in the MLC in NYC in concert with Mayor Adams to weaken Medicare and reduce benefits for seniors while promoting a privatized MedAdv plan that itself would definitely NOT protect Medicare but in fact would weaken it.
We’ve said for years we need federal intervention to protect all our health care benefits for both retirees and in-service members as a way to deflect from our actions to take away Medicare on the MLC.We can no longer wait for the federal government to do the right thing. We need to push for it, and the push starts with our retirees while we stab those NYC retirees in the back. We will fight like hell oppose any state-wide moves.
This fight needs to be national even though we full well know there is zero chance of making any changes. Protecting health care at the local and state levels isn't enough while we use specious arguments to oppose any moves to implement local and regional solutions that would expand medicare and would benefit not only retirees but everyone.We need to wage a war against an industry that cares more about quarterly profits and bonuses than its patients’ care while we promote that very industry like Aetna as solutions in NYC while the Dem party rakes in contributions from these industry lobbyists.Let’s not forget: Our members pay into Medicare and Social Security throughout their careers (while we let anyone who makes over 168k off the hook), and we cannot let opponents chip away at these programs while I and my fellows on the MLC chip away all the way. Our retirement security depends on them, except for those teacher retirees we supposedly represent.No one works harder than public school educators, nurses and other public employees. The push for this federal legislation is just the first step in a campaign to protect the health care of all UFT members, both working and retired. Of course we have no plan when we ignore a strategy of gaining national health care through a local strategy. With so much at stake in the elections in November, Congress needs to lock in Medicare and Social Security benefits, and it needs to act now while we make sure to oppose any state level moves to do the same. But we always want Dem party funders and lobbyists from the health care industry on board so like ObamaCare and will always keep a warm spot open for them to make their profits on the backs of our members.Sincerely,Someone named Michael (just in case the UFT sends lawyers after me like they did to Arthur.)
Under Assault also comments on Mulgrew’s new resolutions: an exercise in futility .... Fighting for Traditional Medicare has never been on the UFT agenda as far as I know. It’s hardly within its purview... The Second resolution is practically meaningless. No candidate at
the federal or state level is currently trying to find a real solution
to preserve “high-quality and affordable benefits.” The only way to do
that would be to change the tax structure and cut the ravenous middlemen
corporations out altogether – those giant entities that have taken over
the healthcare industries from top to bottom, eating up Medicare
dollars. That solution would be Single Payer, and I don’t hear anyone
talking much about it these days.... As for the Third resolution: there are no “simple solutions” to
healthcare. (I don’t even understand what Mulgrew means by “simple
solutions to necessary changes” – and I don’t think he knows either.)... for the Fourth, where Mulgrew says they’ll seek federal
legislation to ensure that Medicare and SS won’t be diminished. Exactly
what form will that “seeking” take? The AFT won’t find big solutions
with the lobbyists.
Here is a letter to The Chief from Harry Weiner
No advantages
Posted Wednesday, July 24, 2024 2:40 pm
https://thechiefleader.com/sto
ries/no-advantages,52791 To the editor:
UFT President Michael Mulgrew has withdrawn support for the Medicare Advantage and the current health care negotiations for in-service and pre-Medicare retirees. In a letter to the Municipal Labor Committee outlining his about-face, he complained that “this administration has proven to be more interested in cutting its costs than honestly working with us to provide high-quality healthcare to city workers.”
In an NY1 interview, Mulgrew added that the City “should stop all of these appeals” and expressed concern that a court labeled City attorneys “incompetent.” He also told The Chief that the relationship with administration officials has become “adversarial.”
These are crocodile tears, as MLC attorneys, with his blessing, have sided with the city in litigation brought by retirees. MLC legal filings have failed, and their lawyers are losing all the way to the bank.
According to the NYC Organization of Public Service Retirees, MLC attorney Alan Klinger was paid $882,000 in 2022 and $763,000 in 2023 to fight the retirees in court. (The MLC’s house attorney, Harry Greenberg, has a $60,000 annual income.) With cash reserves drained, an attempt was made to pass an MLC dues increase to cover the $700,000 debt owed to a consulting firm for health plan guidance.
MLC Chair Harry Nespoli sent a letter to Mayor Adams echoing Mulgrew’s concerns about protracted ”legal hurdles.” Sadly, there was no call to drop any appeal. Nor did the MLC (or Mulgrew) endorse city and state legislation to protect retiree health benefits.
Nespoli writes that the mayor has rebuffed requests to meet, collaborate and resolve delays. Hizzoner won’t return calls. Nespoli now knows how snubbed the NYC Organization of Public Service Retirees has felt these past three years.
Harry Weiner
Marianne video
Wednesday, October 25, 2023
Important information: November is the month to change health plans plus a wealth of Medicare Health Information from Julie Woodward
Healthcare has been on the minds of all UFTers recently with changes coming to working members and with the recent victories of retirees to hold onto their traditional medicare along with the DOE coverage of 20% with seniorcare.
This is a message from Julie Woodward, a former middle school chapter leader and one of the founders of ICE/UFT caucus. Working with Julie in ICE was a pleasure as she was often meticulous in her efforts. Julie retired years ago and became an expert on health care coverage for Medicare eligible seniors and has developed workshops to assist seniors in making health insurance decisions. With November being the opportunity to change plans she asked me to share this message with links to workshops she runs for seniors plus a wide range of information in general.
November’s the month when retirees can change their current city plan to another one (find the forms you need on the Office of Labor Relations (OLR) website here), but I don’t expect anyone is going to swap GHI Sr Care for one of the other ones, like Emblem’s HIP VIP HMO. Clearly most people are really afraid of those prior authorizations in the advantage plans, plus the provider networks. As it happens, I have to change plans this year myself, because of the cost of a single drug.But Medicare has other quirky things in it that are truly confounding, like what falls under Part, B, D, or what is not covered at all. There’s all kinds of rules for things. Here is a short list of examples. There are many more.
- when you can get into a rehab facility,
- how skilled nursing works at home,
- acupuncture restrictions,
- opt-out vs. non-participating doctors,
- which parts of Medicare cover different aspects of chemo or diabetes,
- how hospice works, and so forth.
So I asked Norm if he’d tell people about Demystifying Medicare, a comprehensive and, believe it or not, upbeat workshop I’ve been doing for almost a decade many times a year all around Westchester. So much of what I cover is useful in understanding how our retiree City plans work. Of course ours are negotiated plans, but they're structurally so similar to what’s available in the open market, that sometimes its just good to take a deeper dive into what’s going on out there. And it keeps changing each year, as the industry gets more aggressive and shareholders in these companies want more of the pie.For many years the group I’m involved with has steeped themselves in this stuff and make it our responsibility to help people navigate the system. We were originally trained by the by the Medicare Rights Center in NYC and are now in partnership with the Westchester Library System and the county’s Office of Sr Programs and Services. We’re all HIICAP-certified, unaffiliated counselors, and our presentations and individual counseling (in-person or through a hotline) are all free.Demystifying Medicare has also been online since the first year of COVID, when the live events were cancelled. People can listen to segments at home while they follow a .pdf with pictures of all the old-school displays I use in the in-person programs. (No PowerPoints, I hate those.) There are also links for handouts and a list of all scheduled in-person workshops.Contact information for Julie or free individual counseling certified by NY State: sbicmedia@gmail.com
Saturday, July 15, 2023
NYC Retirees tell City Council " It's time to get off the fence" and joining the July 25 Save Medicare Rally in DC
I did make it to the City Hall Rally for City Council Bill on Thursday but a little late. Good to see working teachers Nick, Judi and Ibeth get there to show support. It was a hot day and it looked like about 150 retirees showed up. I heard the end of the Charles Barron speech and Marianne made a strong speech. The great think was how many unions were present.
UFT hacks have been trying to discredit Marianne by whispering to City Council people she lives in Georgia and must be a Trumpy. It's the same slime we always see coming out of Unity. When they can't beat you to go dirty. And by the way - if the oppo ever threatens their control watch the dirt fly by doing the opposite - red baiting the oppo. Or maybe they will say we are secret Trunpies. And if we dare raise questions about the vote we are automatically Trumpies. Oh the quandry for the hacks -- trying to decide whether to attack opponents as right or left?
Here is the Working Bites link and full article below:
NYC Retirees Tell Council Members ‘It’s Time to Get Off the Fence’
Here are some pics:
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The turnout from City Hall Park |
I also signed up for the July 25 sojourn to Washington. Seeing the movement grow from our own narrow interests here in NYC and plug into the national Medicare issue is a great sign.
Thank you for your interest in joining the NYC Organization of Public Service Retirees, Protect Traditional Public Medicare (PTPM) and Be A Hero in Washington DC on July 25th.
We are so excited to have you join us in DC as we fight together to Reclaim Medicare from Corporate Greed. Our goal is to make sure our elected leaders in DC know that we support strengthening and improving Medicare and that no one should be forced onto these private insurance plans that delay and deny care. We are planning a press conference and speakout on capitol hill and some lobby visits with elected officials.
By Joe Maniscalco
Friday, June 9, 2023
Comptroller Lander Attacks Plans to Reduce Medicare as he Declines to Register Medicare Advantage Contract Pending Litigation
“As a matter of public policy, beyond the scope of our office’s specific Charter responsibility for contract registration, I am seriously concerned about the privatization of Medicare plans, overbilling by insurance companies, and barriers to care under Medicare Advantage.... Recent investigations identified extensive allegations of fraud, abuse, overbilling, and denials of medically necessary care at 9 of the top 10 Medicare Advantage plans, including CVS Health, which owns Aetna. ... ‘Once corporations privatize every inch of the public provision of health care, we may never get Medicare back... Brad Lander
Wow! Brad Lander goes on my very small list of politicians I still vote for.... NYC Retirees
Friday, June 9, 2023
Good news. With the deadline to opt out (June 30) of MulgrewDisadvantateCare fast approaching, Brad Lander tosses a monkey wrench into the Mayor Adams/MRC/UFT deal to drag city retirees out of Medicare into the privately managed, profit making Aetna plan, due to take effect on Sept. 1. As you can see above, Lander went further than just talking about the specifics but went after the general attack on Medicare by the insurance lobby and its allies - our own union.
Fundamentally, the UFT/Unity backing of this change is anti-union and anti-worker. But with a union leadership that dovetails with the corporate wing of the Dem party, why expect anything else? We've noticed that some of the rhetoric coming from the mouth of Randi Weingarten and crew turn calls for Medicare for all into MedicareAdvantage for all --- meaning the standard neo-liberal attacks on government run programs as Medicare is.
Last week, the lawsuit was filed by retirees and yesterday a bill was supposed to be introduced by Charles Baron to the city council, with a large demo outside of retirees but that was postponed until next week - most likely June 22 - Thursday. It's important to have big crowds at these rallies -- politicians notice.
With Adams facing an election in two years, I imagine Lander has put himself into the running as retirees will vote heavily to oppose Adams and Lander just gave himself a leg up. Yes, politics do matter. Even it we don't win the medicare case, we can punish Adams in the next election - and Mulgrew too - both in 2025.
But there is some skepticism in that the Mayor can overrule Lander and will probably do so, so don't go crazy. However, Lander went much further than the narrow legal issues and raised crucial points we have been trying to raise at the UFT - that they were helping kill the only public option.
Nick has notes at NAC on the story:
Yes, Mayor Adams may reverse Lander’s decision. But we now have well positioned allies refusing to sign off on retiree healthcare cuts. And that bodes well for the future, even if it does mean our dear beloved Unity-led UFT leaders may need to find their ‘healthcare savings’ elsewhere, as their debt to the City passes its due date. And yes, with the spotlight on retirees, we should expect those cuts to land on in-service teachers, who have been promised the absurd: an ‘equal or better replacement to GHI at 10% cheaper of a cost.’
When will that replacement be announced? You better bet it won’t be until after Mulgrew tries to ram through a mediocre contract—and that process will start as early as next week. So, before we vote on a TA, let’s make sure we ask – what will only 90% of our current health plan look like, and how will we afford it on a pay-cut?
Make no mistake: we can’t win the battle against healthcare cuts solely on the good graces of well-positioned politicians. Ultimately, we need to situate ourselves to be able to stop anti-labor backroom deals. As Mulgrew is keen to remind us at DAs and executive board meetings, health care is a part of our overall compensation. Well, we vote on whether to accept what the City offers us in economic compensation. So, both now and when we’re retired, we deserve a vote on changes to medical coverage too. Since UFT leadership doesn’t see the problems everyone else sees with reducing our coverage and tossing retirees onto MAP, we need a formal and permanent mechanism to keep them from doing so.
I'm hitting all my docs before Sept. 1 - braving the smoke today to keep a cardiology appointment - I do preventive maintenance - like having my car checked regularly. I think today is a stress test which I think will show I have slowed down since the last one -- I'm thinking it's my weight which I can't seem to lose - probably due to the cheese cake at UFT Ex Bd meetings. Or maybe it's the stress of seeing my own union try to reduce my healthcare.
The email below was sent by a large medical group here in Delray Beach regarding their feelings about Aetna. It's an important read regarding their past dealings with Aetna.
Here is Lander's complete statement:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 8, 2023
Chloe Chik, (646) 761-2914
cchik@comptroller.nyc.gov
press@comptroller.nyc.gov
Comptroller Lander Declines to Register Medicare Advantage Contract Pending Litigation
New York, NY – The Comptroller’s Office declined to register the City’s contract with Aetna to transfer City retirees to a Medicare Advantage program for their health care coverage. A pending lawsuit, brought on behalf of retirees, questions the City’s authority to enter into such an agreement.
Comptroller Brad Lander issued the following statement:
“The Comptroller’s Bureau of Contract Administration carefully reviewed the City’s contract with Aetna and returned the contract to the Office of Labor Relations without registering it. Pending litigation calls into question the legality of this procurement and constrains us from fulfilling our Charter mandated responsibility to confirm that procurement rules were followed, sufficient funds are available, and the City has the necessary authority to enter into the contract.
“As a matter of public policy, beyond the scope of our office’s specific Charter responsibility for contract registration, I am seriously concerned about the privatization of Medicare plans, overbilling by insurance companies, and barriers to care under Medicare Advantage.
“I appreciate the work of the Municipal Labor Council and the Office of Labor Relations to negotiate improvements to the Aetna contract to address some of the concerns raised by retirees. However, the broader Medicare Advantage trends are worrisome. Recent investigations identified extensive allegations of fraud, abuse, overbilling, and denials of medically necessary care at 9 of the top 10 Medicare Advantage plans, including CVS Health, which owns Aetna.
“As health care activist Ady Barkan wrote last month, noting that half of Medicare enrollees nationwide have been transferred from traditional Medicare to private Medicare Advantage plans: ‘Once corporations privatize every inch of the public provision of health care, we may never get Medicare back.’”
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Wednesday, April 5, 2023
RetireeTeacherChapter Meeting - the Horror of Holding up a sign, Sorkin Is Proud to Sign Non-Disclosure, The @uftnyc #MLC might be coming for Active workers - APRIL 11 RALLY, Sign the Healthcare Referendum Petition
Rally!! April 11th. Noon. City Hall
Wednesday, April 5, 2023 - Happy Passover
I'm rushing to get this our before my wife wakes up with the list of honey-do's in prep for 30 of her family members coming for tonight's seder.
Retiree Advocate was out in force before and during yesterday's Aetna screw-you retirees presentation at the monthly chapter meeting and we got loads of people signing our petition for a referendum on healthcare, now approaching 5,000, one quarter of what we need according to the constitution. Entire schools are rolling in, which means active members see the threat to their own healthcare with an RFP (Request for Proposal) out there while Sorkin hides behind his non-disclosure. At the Exec Bd when he said he was so proud of signing that I wanted to ask why sign it?
Toward the end of the meeting, a few activists stood in the back of the room and held up some signs and RTC CL Tom Murphy went nuts, threatening to end the meeting and yelling for security to remove them.
Oh, the horrors. I took this photo in the hall. Note the photo of Albert Shanker looking on.
So, I have a lot to report but not enough time.
Geof Sorkin: I have NDAs. I am proud that I will not reveal who the
potential bidders are.
Yes, UFT Welfare Fund head Sorkin is proud to sign Non Disclosure Agreements as an excuse to withhold information from UFT members who pay his high salary.
From Nick's Ex Bd Notes:
Tonight was mostly about healthcare. Kate Connors came to the Open Mic to talk about the New York Health Act. Ed Calamia asked about Aetna’s ongoing MAP fraud case, to which leadership answered it would not affect our deal. I asked about what specific ‘cost savings’ were being discussed by the vendors in the new in-service RFP, but didn’t get many details.
Nick: Want to ask a question. We’re hearing about an RFP with four potential providers to potentially replace GHI at a lower cost. Not asking about the four respondents – asked last week and wasn’t answered, though you’re free to tell us. However, we know how some of the cost savings have been realized for retirees – like prior authorizations. We also know about some of the cost savings we’ve already realized for in-service – like forcing first year teachers onto HIP or adding huge copays in GHI for most Urgent Cares – 15 bucks to 100 bucks since 2016. What types of ‘cost savings’ are these four vendors suggesting to make the cost savings? What types of copays? What types of networks – diminished? New prior authorizations?
Geof Sorkin: I have NDAs. I am proud that I will not reveal who the potential bidders are. Benefit design: a number of things: looking to replicate to GHI, but also looking across the country and seeing how we could leverage things. We have not met with any of the bidders. Michael has said we’ve identified 4. One of the complexities is we are looking at the info they’ve provided and it’s not always an apples to apples comparison.